Dingus and Dangol: Fat Bike Forever
Dingus: I can do anything on a fat bike.
Dangol: Sure, they're great for snow, but do you really need one? Just get a regular mountain bike.
Dingus: See, here's the thing - a fat bike is a good mountain bike! Just throw a suspension fork on there and a narrower wheelset and you have a badass hardtail bike.
Dangol: What? Swapping forks and wheels - why not just get a whole new bike?
Dingus: Well, it's cheaper. And you can have a single frame with a good fit, rather than doubling up.
Dangol: Is it really all that much cheaper? A RockShox Bluto is like $600, and a Borealis skinnyfat wheelset is another $700. After you get rotors, a cassette, the crown race, tires, etc you're looking at nearly $1500 to convert the bike. That's, like, an entire bike!
Dingus: Yeah it's about the cost of an alloy hardtail. BUT! The Bluto is a mid tier fork, and better than what you'll find on bikes in that price range. Likewise, those Borealis wheels are considerably nicer than what you'd get on a $1500 hardtail.
Dangol: That's, like, almost the entire price of the bike.
Dingus: Well, look at it like this - you get a carbon fiber Salsa Mukluk for about $3,000, then put $1,500 into making it a summer bike - now you're at $4,500 total spend, and you've got a bike that's badass at fat biking, bikepacking, and mountain biking.
Dangol: Sure, but you could also have a $3,000 alloy full suspension bike and a $1,500 fat bike. How much snow are you going to ride that it makes sense to have so much money sunk in a fat bike? Can't you just rent them?
Dingus: You can also rent full suspension bikes. Besides, I don't like full suspension.
Dangol: Fine, get a carbon hardtail. The Specialized Epic and Salsa Woodsmoke both start at $2,200. Leaves you an easy $2.3k - you can get the Mukluk SX Eagle for $2,000, or the Kona Wo for $1,599.
Dingus: Sure - BUT! The SX Eagle is worse than the SLX or NX components on the ~$3,000 carbon fat bike, so you're not getting the same quality fat biking experience.
Dangol: Who cares, it's just snow biking?
Dingus: I care! I love snow biking.
Dangol: Yeah, but your geometry is going to be compromised for summer riding.
Dingus: What do you mean?
Dangol: Well, let's say you get a Mukluk. The chainstays are 432mm in the short position, and the head tube angle is 69 degrees. The Woodsmoke has chainstays of 409mm with a 67.8 degree head tube angle.
Dingus: What does that mean?
Dangol: The Woodsmoke is going to feel way more agile and fast, and it's also going to handle descents and technical stuff better. Not to mention be significantly lighter - the Woodsmoke is 27lb 14oz for a large, while the Mukluk is 32lbs. You'll lose probably 5-6lbs with the smaller wheels and tires, but you'll gain most of that back with a suspension fork. That's not even counting the dropper post.
Dingus: Hmm. Yeah. That's pretty true.
Dingus: OK, OK, scrap the suspension fork and smaller wheelset. A rigid fat bike is a lot of fun on summer trails.
Dangol: Ugh! Surly Bud/Lou tires are so heavy and slow on dirt, I can't imagine them being fun.
Dingus: Sure, so don't use those tires. The Schwalbe Jumbo Jim 4" SnakeSkin tire is 1090g, compared to the 1700g of the Bud/Lou - you're losing 1220g, and the tread pattern is very fast on dirt/hardpack. The extra traction is also very nice on steep and loose sections.
Dangol: OK, so let's say you've got your 32lb fat bike stock. Subtract ~2lb for tubes, then you subtract another 2.7lb for those Schwalbes. So now you're at 27.3lbs. But that's still a rigid bike.
Dingus: Yeah! So it's even more efficient than a hardtail, so the weight is less of an issue.
Dangol: But you're going to have way less comfort and technical capacity.
Dingus: Not necessarily. 4" of tire is a lot, and you can run tire pressure pretty low to get a lot of technical capacity. it's easy to pump the tire back up to get an efficient ride again, while the suspension fork is much more difficult to tune.
Dangol: Suspension isn't that hard to tune.
Dingus: What?! Yes it is! There's like three knobs, and controlling for air pressure, and controlling for dampening tokens, or whatever
Dangol: Eh, I guess so.
Dingus: Not to mention all the cost associated with servicing the fork.
Dangol: Yeah I'm not a fan of that. But it's really nice having all that squish, plus the low rolling resistance of the tire.
Dingus: I'm not convinced that the rolling resistance of a 4" fast tire is much worse than a 2.5" aggressively knobby tire, and they offer about the same amount of grip. The energy lost into a suspension fork almost certainly makes up for that difference.
Dangol: OK, but suspension from an air fork and a tire are not comparable - a tire is undampened suspension, while a fork offers dampened suspension.
Dingus: Of course! The tire can rebound much faster, which makes it better at absorbing small hits and washboard. A suspension fork feels like shit over washboard.
Dangol: Yeah, and a big tire doesn't take the edge off big hits very well. Furthermore, because it has so much bounce, it's more likely to buck you off the bike.
Dingus: yeah i've been thrown off the fat bike before trying to land a jump lmao
Dangol:
Dingus: I mean, it sucks, but it's not like it's the worst. For fast flowy stuff, I've got faster times on my rigid 4" tire fat bike with drop bars than I do on the full suspension 29er I owned.
Dangol: Yeah, but how's it compare on more technical stuff?
Dingus: It's hard to say. I don't really have the technical capacity to take advantage of a full squish bike, and I lose way more time climbing on a more inefficient platform than I gain going downhill.
Dangol: So you'd probably get significantly faster on a full suspension bike if you got good at it.
Dingus: Maybe. It's hard to imagine those speed increases not translating just as well to the fat bike, and any fitness improvement would be better for the fat bike, too.
Dangol: How much do you even like mountain biking?
Dingus: Oh it's fine. I like it. But I tend to prefer bikepacking, gravel cycling, and snow biking.
Dangol: Wait, what?? I love mountain biking, it's the best.
Dingus: It's kinda scary, and I don't really want to injure myself.
Dangol: I guess that's reasonable. I don't want to be hit by cars so I don't road bike.
Dingus: Yeah thus the gravel biking.
Dangol: But that's just boring
Dangol: Ohhh I get it. You don't really like mountain biking.
Dingus: If I had to rank biking concerns, it'd be bikepacking, gravel cycling, snow biking, mountain biking, yeah.
Dangol: Okay. So my priorities are more like mountain biking, bikepacking, ... and I guess snow biking and gravel are fine too.
Dingus: Yeah so you don't understand why I'd like a nice snow bike, because you don't like snow biking.
Dangol: And you don't care that your bike isn't great for mountain biking, because you don't even like it enough to have a dedicated mountain bike.
Dingus: Exactly, yeah!
Dangol: Sure, they're great for snow, but do you really need one? Just get a regular mountain bike.
Dingus: See, here's the thing - a fat bike is a good mountain bike! Just throw a suspension fork on there and a narrower wheelset and you have a badass hardtail bike.
Dangol: What? Swapping forks and wheels - why not just get a whole new bike?
Dingus: Well, it's cheaper. And you can have a single frame with a good fit, rather than doubling up.
Dangol: Is it really all that much cheaper? A RockShox Bluto is like $600, and a Borealis skinnyfat wheelset is another $700. After you get rotors, a cassette, the crown race, tires, etc you're looking at nearly $1500 to convert the bike. That's, like, an entire bike!
Dingus: Yeah it's about the cost of an alloy hardtail. BUT! The Bluto is a mid tier fork, and better than what you'll find on bikes in that price range. Likewise, those Borealis wheels are considerably nicer than what you'd get on a $1500 hardtail.
Dangol: That's, like, almost the entire price of the bike.
Dingus: Well, look at it like this - you get a carbon fiber Salsa Mukluk for about $3,000, then put $1,500 into making it a summer bike - now you're at $4,500 total spend, and you've got a bike that's badass at fat biking, bikepacking, and mountain biking.
Dangol: Sure, but you could also have a $3,000 alloy full suspension bike and a $1,500 fat bike. How much snow are you going to ride that it makes sense to have so much money sunk in a fat bike? Can't you just rent them?
Dingus: You can also rent full suspension bikes. Besides, I don't like full suspension.
Dangol: Fine, get a carbon hardtail. The Specialized Epic and Salsa Woodsmoke both start at $2,200. Leaves you an easy $2.3k - you can get the Mukluk SX Eagle for $2,000, or the Kona Wo for $1,599.
Dingus: Sure - BUT! The SX Eagle is worse than the SLX or NX components on the ~$3,000 carbon fat bike, so you're not getting the same quality fat biking experience.
Dangol: Who cares, it's just snow biking?
Dingus: I care! I love snow biking.
Dangol: Yeah, but your geometry is going to be compromised for summer riding.
Dingus: What do you mean?
Dangol: Well, let's say you get a Mukluk. The chainstays are 432mm in the short position, and the head tube angle is 69 degrees. The Woodsmoke has chainstays of 409mm with a 67.8 degree head tube angle.
Dingus: What does that mean?
Dangol: The Woodsmoke is going to feel way more agile and fast, and it's also going to handle descents and technical stuff better. Not to mention be significantly lighter - the Woodsmoke is 27lb 14oz for a large, while the Mukluk is 32lbs. You'll lose probably 5-6lbs with the smaller wheels and tires, but you'll gain most of that back with a suspension fork. That's not even counting the dropper post.
Dingus: Hmm. Yeah. That's pretty true.
Dingus: OK, OK, scrap the suspension fork and smaller wheelset. A rigid fat bike is a lot of fun on summer trails.
Dangol: Ugh! Surly Bud/Lou tires are so heavy and slow on dirt, I can't imagine them being fun.
Dingus: Sure, so don't use those tires. The Schwalbe Jumbo Jim 4" SnakeSkin tire is 1090g, compared to the 1700g of the Bud/Lou - you're losing 1220g, and the tread pattern is very fast on dirt/hardpack. The extra traction is also very nice on steep and loose sections.
Dangol: OK, so let's say you've got your 32lb fat bike stock. Subtract ~2lb for tubes, then you subtract another 2.7lb for those Schwalbes. So now you're at 27.3lbs. But that's still a rigid bike.
Dingus: Yeah! So it's even more efficient than a hardtail, so the weight is less of an issue.
Dangol: But you're going to have way less comfort and technical capacity.
Dingus: Not necessarily. 4" of tire is a lot, and you can run tire pressure pretty low to get a lot of technical capacity. it's easy to pump the tire back up to get an efficient ride again, while the suspension fork is much more difficult to tune.
Dangol: Suspension isn't that hard to tune.
Dingus: What?! Yes it is! There's like three knobs, and controlling for air pressure, and controlling for dampening tokens, or whatever
Dangol: Eh, I guess so.
Dingus: Not to mention all the cost associated with servicing the fork.
Dangol: Yeah I'm not a fan of that. But it's really nice having all that squish, plus the low rolling resistance of the tire.
Dingus: I'm not convinced that the rolling resistance of a 4" fast tire is much worse than a 2.5" aggressively knobby tire, and they offer about the same amount of grip. The energy lost into a suspension fork almost certainly makes up for that difference.
Dangol: OK, but suspension from an air fork and a tire are not comparable - a tire is undampened suspension, while a fork offers dampened suspension.
Dingus: Of course! The tire can rebound much faster, which makes it better at absorbing small hits and washboard. A suspension fork feels like shit over washboard.
Dangol: Yeah, and a big tire doesn't take the edge off big hits very well. Furthermore, because it has so much bounce, it's more likely to buck you off the bike.
Dingus: yeah i've been thrown off the fat bike before trying to land a jump lmao
Dangol:
Dingus: I mean, it sucks, but it's not like it's the worst. For fast flowy stuff, I've got faster times on my rigid 4" tire fat bike with drop bars than I do on the full suspension 29er I owned.
Dangol: Yeah, but how's it compare on more technical stuff?
Dingus: It's hard to say. I don't really have the technical capacity to take advantage of a full squish bike, and I lose way more time climbing on a more inefficient platform than I gain going downhill.
Dangol: So you'd probably get significantly faster on a full suspension bike if you got good at it.
Dingus: Maybe. It's hard to imagine those speed increases not translating just as well to the fat bike, and any fitness improvement would be better for the fat bike, too.
Dangol: How much do you even like mountain biking?
Dingus: Oh it's fine. I like it. But I tend to prefer bikepacking, gravel cycling, and snow biking.
Dangol: Wait, what?? I love mountain biking, it's the best.
Dingus: It's kinda scary, and I don't really want to injure myself.
Dangol: I guess that's reasonable. I don't want to be hit by cars so I don't road bike.
Dingus: Yeah thus the gravel biking.
Dangol: But that's just boring
Dangol: Ohhh I get it. You don't really like mountain biking.
Dingus: If I had to rank biking concerns, it'd be bikepacking, gravel cycling, snow biking, mountain biking, yeah.
Dangol: Okay. So my priorities are more like mountain biking, bikepacking, ... and I guess snow biking and gravel are fine too.
Dingus: Yeah so you don't understand why I'd like a nice snow bike, because you don't like snow biking.
Dangol: And you don't care that your bike isn't great for mountain biking, because you don't even like it enough to have a dedicated mountain bike.
Dingus: Exactly, yeah!
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