Touring Frameset Comparison

Alright y'all, I want a touring/commuter bike for mostly paved stuff. I want to run 40-50mm tires (with fenders), long chainstays for stability and getting panniers out of my way, and a big stack height for comfortable drop bar touring. I collected a bunch of frames, did a bunch of math, and came up with some neat stuff.

I own two bikes, and I have their fit dialed in pretty well. The Fuji Jari 56cm is the first one, and I've done a lot of stuff with it - it's a bit of a noodle when weighted down, and the positioning is a bit aggressive for long days in the saddle. I'm probably more of a 54cm anyway. The Salsa Cutthroat Medium is the second, and it's a dream. I can be in that thing forever.

The Cutthroat has a Frame Stack/Reach of 619/375, while the Fuji has a 592/379 geometry. I've spent a lot of time dialing in the fit on the Jari, and after doing calculations, I have a total stack/reach of 689/488. I have not dialed in the Cutthroat at all, and it has a S/R of 721/491. Nearly identical reach but about 32mm more stack. The Cutthroat is more comfy, for sure, so that has me looking at bikes with a big stack.

I looked up a ton of bikes, and have presented them here in descending order of frame stack, along with the Stack/Reach figures

• Salsa Fargo (M): 
• 643, 368
• Salsa Cutthroat (M): 
• 619, 375
• Marin Four Corners (M):
• 617, 403
• Soma Saga Disc (56cm):
• 608, 381
• Fuji Jari (56cm):
• 592, 379
• Salsa Vaya (MD):
• 590, 365
• Surly Disc Trucker (56cm):
• 588, 389
• Trek 920 (54cm):
• 583, 392
• Some Saga Disc (54cm):
• 580, 381
• Marin Four Corners (S):
• 580, 381
• Kona Sutra (52cm)
• 568, 385
• Jamis Renegade (54cm)
• 565, 378
• Trek 520 (54cm)
• 565, 378
• Salsa Marrakesh (MD)
• 563, 373
• Kona Sutra (48.5cm)
• 558, 380
• Jamis Aurora Elite (53cm)
• 557, 381
• Jamis Aurora Elite (50cm)
• 538, 386 (wtf? why does a smaller bike have a longer reach?)

These aren't all touring bikes - the Fargo and Cutthroat are mountain bikepacking bikes, the Jari and Renegade are gravel bikes. So what is weird to me is how the reach doesn't really track with the stack! The largest reach is the medium Marin Four Corners at 403mm (3rd highest stack) while the smallest reach is the medium Salsa Vaya (6th highest stack). Reach numbers seem to be all over the place.

The average reach is 380mm. And the ratio of reach/stack is interesting, too, ranging from 71.75% (Jamis Aurora 50cm) to 57.23% (Salsa Fargo M), with a higher percentage indicating a more aggressive posture. For reference, a Specialized Tarmac 54cm has a stack of 544 and a reach of 384 for a ratio of 70.59%. This makes the Jamis Aurora seem especially odd. Let's go down the list and see if we can disqualify anything.

Round 1: Tires, Frames, Oh My!

The Salsa Fargo does remarkably well here. It can run 29x3 tires, so pretty much any tire size is up for grabs with fenders. The stack is by far higher than anything else on list, and it has nearly the shortest reach. It can run a rack, singlespeed, internally geared hub, etc. It has the second longest chainstays on the list, at 462mm extended, with the Salsa Marrakesh's 472mm being the largest. There's a bit of a weight penalty to the frame to run such big tires, but the frameset uses a carbon fiber fork, which ends up balancing the weight out. They don't publish full specs, but the Tiagra 2x build with 2.6" tires comes out at 28lbs. At $999 for the frameset, it's the most expensive frame on the list - nearly as much as some of the complete options! It would feel ridiculous to use a Fargo as a paved touring/commuting bike when I have a Cutthroat already...

The Marin Four Corners (M) is the next up for frame stack, but the reach is a bit problematic. I can get a comparable geometry to my Cutthroat with a 50mm stem and ~90mm from the steerer tube to the stem center, but that's pretty extreme. Chainstays of 450mm are respectable, and it comes in a cheap fully equipped build. The Four Corners is advertised with 42mm tires, and no max clearance spec. There's no frameset available, but the full build is $1099 with Sora groupset and Spyre brakes, which makes this a great value. There isn't a weight spec, but reviews indicate it's 28.6lbs stock - not bad.

The Soma Saga Disc (56cm) comes up next. The stack is generous at 608mm, and the reach of 381mm is very close to what I'm used to on the Jari and Cutthroat. 450mm chainstays are solid. Soma loads this frameset with features, which is neat. Soma says the Saga can clear a 2.1" tire, which means it should get a 45-48mm with fenders nicely. The 44cm frame weighs 5.35lbs (or is that the frameset?) which is a respectable weight. The frameset costs $629, a solid deal.

The Salsa Vaya is an interesting pick here. It sits at a 62% ratio, which is only beat by the Fargo's 57%. Chainstays are still long, at 450mm. It's a pretty solid choice, but it's not listed as a "fully loaded touring bike" - how much will that matter? It can clear 50mm tires, or 45mm with fenders. Like the Fargo, it's got a carbon fork - this helps with the weight, as the frame comes in at 5lb 2oz, while the fork is 1lb 6oz for a total of 6.5lbs. If I'm going to shell out $999 for a frame (or $1,999 for a complete 105 in a nice purple), it's hard not to prefer the Fargo - but the Vaya 105 build comes in at 24lb 10oz. This might not have the stability that I want for touring and loaded riding.

After that, we've got the Surly Disc Trucker. The 56cm is the smallest model with 700c wheels, which is important to me. The stack is a solid 588, but the reach is on the longer end - 389mm is the second longest on the list. This could make fitting a bit annoying. The chainstays are a solid 460mm, which is the third largest of the group. The tire clearance is just 42mm with fenders, or 45mm without. That's on the smaller side of what I'd like. The frameset costs $575, and the complete is $1550 with quite nice specs. Surly refuses to publish weight specs, but the internet reports around 28lbs for a complete.

The Trek 920 is a bit odd here as an aluminum bike, but a friend swears by his, so I'm considering it. The bike geometry is a bit more aggressive than the Surly Disc Trucker, and it also has significantly more tire clearance. It's an aluminum Cutthroat on that front. The frameset comes in at 6.71lb and $899. The complete - with racks and SRAM components - weighs 28lbs, which is respectable, but also $2,100 and not in the price range. It's hard not think that for $100 more I'd be on steel + carbon and either lighter (Vaya) or much more tire clearance (Fargo), or I could save several hundred dollars and go with a Soma/Surly frameset.

The Saga Disc 54cm has the same reach as the 56cm, but with 28mm less stack. Weird! Chainstays are still 450cm. I think this one is out, solely because the 56cm has the higher stack. The standover on my Fuji is just barely okay, and the 56cm Saga is a half inch less, while the 54cm is a full inch less. The frame probably weighs less, too. 28mm of stack is probably feasible to fix with spacers.

The Marin Four Corners (S) has identical fit to the Soma Saga Disc 54cm. Cool! However, the chainstays are only 432mm, which is shorter than my Jari's (435mm), and that's a dealbreaker, as I already experience a tiny bit of heel strike with this bike.

Kona Sutra's 52cm comes up next. The reach/stack ratio is 68%, which is on the higher end. Big tire clearance is sweet, but this may be a bit aggressive for my purposes. I think the Sutras are going to be out on fit geometry alone.

The Jamis Renegade 54cm is a very comfy looking and feeling bike, but the short chainstays (430mm) are a dealbreaker.

The Trek 520 is a venerable choice, but is rather weirdly appointed - the included fork is aluminum. The complete build is 31.44lb (with front and rear racks) at $1679 with a Sora build. It can clear 29x2.1" tires (2" officially") and comes stock with 38mm tires - a solid appointment. Unfortunately, the stack/reach is surprisingly aggressive at 565/378. The frameset sits at $650, a reasonable price. I think the alloy fork is going to disqualify this one for me.

The Salsa Marrakesh is a "world touring" design bike, and it's surprising to see it so far down the list of stack height. My guess is that the accompanying steel fork can have quite a lot of spacers to set the handlebars where you need them. The frameset weighs 8.375lb, which is quite stocky. The stated tire clearance is 50mm without fenders, while it was designed for 40mm with fenders. Not bad. Apparently it can clear a 650b 2.6" with a tiny bit of room to spare, which is crazy cool. The Marrakesh Sora build is $1800 and weighs 31lbs with racks.

The remaining three bikes (Sutra 48.5, Jamis Aurora) have a stack of less than 560mm. Tons of spacers might be able to make it work, but compared to the Cutthroat's 620mm stack, there's just too much catching up to do to really consider them. The Jamis Aurora also has a very limited tire clearance, so it's hard to want.

Round 2: Stems, Spacers, Bars

Frame geometry is all well and good, but you have a lot of wiggle room with steerer tube length, stem length and angle, and handlebar rise/reach selection. We can calculate the total reach/stack based on head tube angle, steerer tube, stem length, stem angle, and handlebar rise/reach. For the bikes that pass, let's see how they stack up.

The Cutthroat currently has a total stack of 721mm and a total reach of 492mm. It's got an 80mm stem, 7 degrees of rise, and about 70mm of steerer tube. The handlebars have 68mm of reach and no rise. I have not been fitted yet for this bike, but it's already more comfortable than the Fuji Jari that I dialed in over a year or two of self-taken fit adjustments. I know that I like the Salsa Cowchipper bars, so I will be using those (68mm reach, 0mm stack) unless otherwise noted. I think that the reach may be a touch long on the Cutthroat, so I'll use that as a higher bound. The Fuji has a 70mm stem, and the steering is a touch twitchy, so I'll be using that as a lower bound for stem length.

Steerer tube length is the distance from the frame stack point to the center of the stem. What's a reasonable steerer tube length? That seems to depend on what sort of fork you're running. Many carbon forks say 30-55mm of spacers between the headset and the stem. The headset often contributes some stack as well (5-15mm on the bikes in house). The stem is usually ~35-50mm of space, so 17-25mm of height from that. So we've got roughly 25-40mm of steerer tube from non-spacers, which means we have an upper bound of 55mm to 95mm of steerer tube length on a carbon fork. Steel and aluminium forks are more permissive - I've read that steel forks essentially don't have a limit, though I wouldn't want to go more than 80mm (for an upper bound of 105-120mm).

The Salsa Fargo has a higher frame stack and shorter reach than the Cutthroat, so it's very easy to make it work. I can run a longer stem and fewer spacers and still have a higher stack than the Cutthroat. Options abound, and I'm not even a little bit strained for choices.

The Marin Four Corners (M) can attain the same stack as the Cutthroat with 90mm of steerer tube and a 50mm stem. This is a bit extreme. With a 70mm by 45 degree stem, we can run 40mm of steerer tube and get 717/489, which is pretty close to the Cutthroat. But that's also kind of silly. I think the reach here is just too much. 100mm of steerer tube permits a 50mm stem, but that's just kind of short - the twitchy handling from the Jari is already an issue with a 70mm stem.

The Soma Saga 56cm gets a 727/492 number with 90mm of steerer tube and an 80mm/7d stem. That's actually even more stack, at the same reach! Nice. 

The Vaya (M) can hit the Cutthroat numbers with 80mm of steerer tube, 100mm/15d stem. A bit weird looking, but a longer stem can be nice for accessories. This does make me worry about toe overlap with big tires and fenders, though.

The Surly Disc Trucker gets 726/495 with 100mm of steerer tube, and an 80mm/15d stem. A bit weird. 120mm of steerer allows a 70mm/7d stem. If we use the Truck Stop handlebar (30mm rise), then we can use 80mm of steerer tube and 60mm/7d stem to get 718/488. Not shabby. Or, with 120mm of steerer tube length, we can run a 70mm stem with 7 degree rise and Cowchipper handlebars to get 731/485. Nice.

The Soma Saga 54 fares pretty well here. We can safely go up to 120mm of steerer tube, and then an 80mm/7d stem gets us 728/483 - higher stack and shorter reach. 10mm more stem puts us at 732/492. This is good! The wheelbase is 2mm shorter than the 56cm, so we don't have a huge risk of more toe overlap issues.

The Marin Four Corners (SM) actually fits nicely here - 120mm of steerer, 90mm/7d stem puts us at 733/488. Good!

The Sutra 52 gets a nice fit with 120mm steerer, 90mm/7d stem with 720/494. Slightly more reach and slightly less stack. An 80mm/15d stem get sit back to 726/480, which is nice.

The Salsa Marrakesh hits 720/491 with 120mm steerer and a 100mm/7d stem. The 100mm stem gets me worried about toe overlap, like the Vaya. The wheelbase is 1066mm compared to the Vaya's 1034. 22mm of that is from the chainstays, so we have 10mm more toe clearance than the Vaya. Interesting.

So what I'm finding here is that all of these frames can be made to fit. Even the Auroras fit well with 100mm stems and 120mm of steerer tube. Welp, that didn't narrow anything down, really. The Vaya might be a bit too agile for my purposes, and the Four Corners (M) a bit too long, but the Marin Four Corners (SM) ended up passing well.

Round 3: Details and Features

We're down to a smaller list of bikes:

• Salsa Fargo (M)
• $999 (complete at $2,000)
• ~28lb complete
• Carbon fork, 29x3" tire capacity
• Soma Saga (56/54)
• $629 frameset
• Surly Disc Trucker (56)
• $575 frameset, $1550 complete
• ~28lb complete
• Marin Four Corners (SM)
• $1099 complete, Sora build
• ~28lb complete
• Kona Sutra (52)
• $600 frameset
• Salsa Marrakesh (MD)
• $799 frameset, 8.375lb
• $1800 Sora build, 31lb (with racks)

I'd strongly prefer a frame-up build, which is a ding against the Marin Four Corners. Otherwise, it is the absolute winner on price. $1099 for a complete bike is awesome. I'm a bit concerned that the geometry is more of a gravel/adventure bike, and this affects the Sutra too.

The Salsa Fargo, fuck, t's just so cool. But I don't think I'd really end up using it to it's potential. I want a commuter and a touring bike, so I think it's out. I can get similar weight savings by going carbon fork on whatever other build, too...

This gets us down to the Soma Saga, Surly Disc Trucker, and Salsa Marrakesh. The Surly is the cheapest, at $575. The Soma is a bit pricier at $629, but has much nicer steel and should be about a pound lighter. The Marrakesh is significantly more expensive but the Alternator dropouts make it compatible with IGH, belt drive, and some other neat and ridiculous things. However, that means it is only compatible with their Alternator rack! That's not terrible, but my Tubus rack is already great, so I don't really want to buy another rack.

Round 4: Complete Comparison

Let's consider completes. The Soma doesn't have one, so it's Surly vs Salsa for now. I'd prefer a frame build, but the completes may just be good enough.

Marrakesh has a few offerings. The prettiest one is the Brooks edition, with a nice dark blue. It comes in at $1,499. It weighs 31lb 7oz, with a rear rack included. Shimano Deore components, 11-34 cassette, 48/36/26 chainrings. Hayes CX brakes. Not a bad build. The wheels are Deore hubs with WTB ST i19 rims. That's a bit narrower than I'd like, but I'm probably going to replace the wheels anyway with a dynamo. I'm not sure I'll like the Brooks saddle,  but everyone loves them, so why not?

The Surly Disc Trucker is $1550. It has a significantly less good saddle, but it makes up for it with a 10 speed drivetrain, Deore XT T8000 rear derailleur, and 11-36 cassette with 48/36/26 rings. It doesn't come with a rack, but that's OK, because I have a rack. Same deal with the wheels - i19, which is smaller than I'd want, but that's fine. It comes in black or gray, just like the frame.

Oh, heck. They have the Marrakesh for sale locally for $1,049. Oh heck. That's a steal. Damn it.

Round 5: Frame Up Build

Alright, so let's say I build a frame. Let's pick components.

The wheels are gonna be Hunt Superdura Dynamo Disc, at $724.

Round 6: Scavenger!

OK, can it, I bought the Marrakesh on sale for $1050. That gives me all the components I need for the Soma build, and then I can sell the Salsa frameset for a decent chunk of change and some of the extra parts there. The Soma frameset is $500 right now, shipped, so I think I can make this work out!

Why, though?

So, the Marrakesh has two main issues: low frame stack height, and a high rear rack mount point due to the Alternator dropouts. The Saga is also a lighter frame, made of nicer steel, saving about a pound and a quarter.

Stack height is fixable with a steep stem. A 90mm stem with 30 degrees would put the stack at 711 and a total reach of 697. The Saga would probably run a 15 degree stem with 70mm length, for nearly the same specs. However, the Marrakesh has a relatively short cut steerer tube for a touring bike, and I bet I could get a much taller steerer tube on the Saga frameset.

The Alternator dropouts are a bit of a tradeoff situation. They work with IGH and singlespeed setups quite well, which I don't really care about. They put the rack bolt position a bit forward of the wheel axle, and quite a bit higher than most bikes. This means that racks designed around traditional bikes will be quite awkward, if they fit at all, and will likely experience even worse heel strike.

I experienced some heel strike issues with the rack in the low position on the maiden voyage, so that's an immediate turn-off. I don't know why you'd design a bike for world-touring and then completely fuck up the rear rack placement - it's kind of important for that application! My Fuji Jari with a Tubus Logo can clear heel strikes just fine, because the rack is well-designed with a back extension. This is in spite of the nearly 20mm shorter chainstays. Extending the chainstays using the Alternator sliding dropouts doesn't help, either, because the mounting point is on the seat stay, not the dropout.